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Why phbBB2?

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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:52 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

AutoMod is a good start. But it also has a long way to go before it is even close to being as good as EM. AM can't handle SQL yet apparently. AM can't handle multiple templates, which allows me to assume that it doesn't handle multiple languages either...

AM uses MODx files. Can it handle simple text MOD files? IMO, MODX was a mistake for a MOD file standard. Once again, this defies the KISS principle. Everyone has a text editor that can open Text files. But how many people have editors that can handle MODX and XML files???

I hope that the neysayers don't stand in the way of the AM development like they did with EM. But I can already see that happening in AM related topics. I imagine that AM will be fought by the same people who fought EM...

And what was the purpose of changing the name from EM to AM???

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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:56 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

espicom wrote:
You do not have to go to your FTP program. You do have to find the button on the ACP's default page to clear the cache, however, AND remember that you have to do it. Just been there, had to find it, to put Adsense back on a just-converted forum.

That's good to know. Even though I won't be using phpBB3 in my community, it is nice to know that the clear cache option is available in the ACP should I decide to help someone using a phpBB3 board. But how would someone who just made a change in the template editor know that they have to do that? There are no instructions that I know of saying that template changes won't be reflected until the cache folder is emptied...

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drathbun
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008

Posts: 728
Location: Texas


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:19 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

I expect it was renamed from EasyMOD to AutoMOD because it's a completely different product. Someone on the official MOD team at phpbb.com could probably confirm that.

I think everyone knows I am a fan of phpBB2. icon_smile.gif But I have said before that phpBB3 coding does have improvements over phpBB2. For example, count how many places in a standard phpBB2 installation you have code to display an avatar. You'll find essentially the same code in groupcp.php, memberlist.php, viewtopic.php, a reference to code in privmsgs.php that doesn't work, and so on. The function to display an avatar should have been in, well, a function. icon_smile.gif And since a user's avatar does not often change this could benefit from caching.

How about the code to replace censored words? Again, the code was copied and pasted in a number of different places, including includes/topic_review.php, includes/functions_post.php, posting.php, search.php, viewforum.php, viewtopic.php, and potentially others. You'll find this:
Code:
//
// Define censored word matches
//
$orig_word = array();
$replacement_word = array();
obtain_word_list($orig_word, $replacement_word);

... followed by a replacement on the text string being processed. And this is also clearly something that does not change frequently and therefore would also benefit from caching. And the list does go on and on from there.

Is phpBB3 perfect? No, of course not. Else we would not be here. icon_smile.gif There are fans of phpBB2 as well as phpBB3. As stated on phpbb.com, comparison topics are not likely to get anywhere because you will not get an unbiased opinion. Folks on this site are very likely to defend phpBB2 against all comers. There's nothing wrong with that. icon_smile.gif

So why not modify phpBB2 to include some of the "clean up" work that was done for phpBB3? The simple reason that I have seen mentioned (and makes sense) is that the sort of changes required would rewrite phpBB2 and frankly break many if not most published MODs. I was using phpBB back when they did make some major changes... I believe it was from 2.0.5 to 2.0.6 where they basically dumped every MOD from the MOD-DB at phpbb.com and required MOD authors to resubmit / revalidate. And those changes were not that extreme. Making even simple structural changes to the phpBB2 code to make it more modular would be much worse. It was for this reason that phpBB2.2 became 3.0, as the developers decided to void the backward compatibility in order to make a more forward-looking product.

So for better or worse, we are stuck with the code (and structure) for phpBB2. Can it be improved? Yes. Does it require phpBB3 to do so? In my opinion, no, it does not, and that's the main reason for this site, yes? icon_cool.gif

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Techie-Micheal
Board Member



Joined: 27 Dec 2008

Posts: 49



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:23 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
Micheal wrote:
As I wrote, I agree that the templating is more complex, but there's a valid reason for that.

So what is the reason? If you make the system too complex and difficult, then some who could barely admin a phpBB2 board will never be able to do so for a phpBB3 board. So how is that a benefit for promoting a growing phpBB community???
As code has new features added, the rest of the code must follow. Having the simplified templating system that is phpBB2 simply would not work for phpBB3. That's one of the reasons why phpBB3 was bumped up from phpBB2.2.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Please note I never said the problem didn't exist, I asked about it because I had never seen it or run in to it myself.

It's a common and recurring problem in phpBB3. And since there are no error messages, few will be able to figure out how to correct the problem. The caching problem can happen at any time even though no changes have been made in the code. There is no warning, no errors, and no hint of what might have happened. The phpBB3 community simply goes offline, which really isn't good if you are trying to grow a new and active community...
Well, it can't be all that common if I've never seen it or heard of it and Sam mentioned topics that happened 6 months ago. icon_wink.gif Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to me that the support forums are being flooded with such requests right now.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Quote:
I will leave troubleshooting this caching problem to the phpBB3 developers. I continue to offer tech support mostly to phpBB2 boards and will only help with phpBB3 boards whenever it appears that they are fighting this caching problem. Otherwise, I really am not interested in troubleshooting phpBB3 problems since I have no desire to ever "upgrade" my heavily modded phpBB2 community to it...
That's not how a community grows.

But you are assuming that I want to help phpBB3 grow. I don't. I totally lost interest in phpBB3 because of the coding mistakes and unnecessary complexity and because of the rudeness of the phpBB.com community. I avoided that rudeness by offering technical support in Area 51. That worked well until phpBB.com was hacked and was offline for 3 weeks, and the rude moderators from phpBB.com brought their attitude to Area 51. You can't expect to build a community if TPTB are hostile. The release of the overly/unnecessarily complex and buggy phpBB3 was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, so it was easy for me to walk away. I see no benefit in growing the phpBB3 community...
Speaking of hostile ...

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Advanced permissions, native attachments, enhanced templating abilities, native subforums, and plenty more that most of the more popular MODs offer. Perhaps you could give me examples?

Strike One (and this is a major strike): There is no modding tool included or built for phpBB3.
There wasn't one included in phpBB2, but as mentioned below, there's one now out for phpBB3.

Quote:
I have everything that you listed and much, much more in my phpBB2 community. And yet, my underlying code remains fairly straight-forward and simple. I have radio, a game room, a gallery, newfeeds, digests, notes, emoticon library, phoogle map, posting history, etc, etc, etc. So why would I give those up? Are these MODs available for phpBB3? Even if they were, what is the benefit for me to start with a clean phpBB3 board and have to manually add those MODs to the code when we already have these MODs installed in my community???
For starters, as the underlying systems that run phpBB2 advance, you will have more and more problems keeping the code running. I noted this at the main site. PHP 5.2.7 flat-out broke phpBB2 in a horrible, horrible way. phpBB3 handled it as elegantly as it could. Another problem is that you don't actually have to do it manually, as I pointed out above. As for if those MODs are available, I don't know, but I'd be interested in working on a couple of those if they aren't. The map being one of them.

Quote:
What does phpBB3 offer that we don't already have other than a different look? As far as looks go, I have 12 fully modded templates installed in my community so that people can choose their own preference...
Enhanced private messaging system, user control panel, enhanced anti-spam measures, decreased load times, extensible authentication with built-in support LDAP, and others, and plenty more. I'm not trying to sound like a salesman, but you continue saying that phpBB3 only offers different looks, which it clearly doesn't, but offers a lot more. Note that I'm not saying people use all of these, which is not what you asked anyway.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Actually, as SamG pointed out, it is very much happening. As you pointed out above, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. icon_wink.gif

And just because you say it doesn't make it true either. If you noticed, saying the "fundamentals of our economy are strong" didn't make it true. I have seen many switch AWAY from phpBB since phpBB3 was introduced. If phpBB3 is so great, why have I seen so many admins quit using phpBB after "upgrading" to phpBB3? They seemed content with phpBB2 before they "upgraded" to phpBB3...
And if phpBB2 is so great, why are so many going to phpBB3?

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Because from what I understand the developers don't consider it a bug in the current design, but rather a change from the current design. The current design works as it should from what I've seen, but it is the design itself that the developers are looking to change, which those kinds of things should wait until the next minor release, rather than a revisional release.

The current design does not work correctly, so can't be considered a "feature". If you edit a template in the ACP and can't see the changes in the forum, then that is a bug.
That's not a bug, that's the incorrect use of the feature.
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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:30 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Micheal wrote:
As code has new features added, the rest of the code must follow. Having the simplified templating system that is phpBB2 simply would not work for phpBB3. That's one of the reasons why phpBB3 was bumped up from phpBB2.2.

Can you give me a reason why the more complex templating system was necessary in phpBB3? Why did it work in phpBB2 but can't be used in phpBB3???

Micheal wrote:
Well, it can't be all that common if I've never seen it or heard of it and Sam mentioned topics that happened 6 months ago. icon_wink.gif Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to me that the support forums are being flooded with such requests right now.

I can't even begin to guess why you haven't seen the topics. They were there. I don't even run a phpBB3 board, yet I have had to troubleshoot and correct this problem numerous times for those who do. So why is this the prominent problem that people have brought to me to fix for them? Maybe I'm just lucky???

Micheal wrote:
Speaking of hostile ...

Look, there is always cause and effect. I am not the only one to complain about the hostility in the phpBB.com community. I don't know you so I don't know if you were ever part of the problem or not. But it was and probably continues to be a problem. If you want to hold my desire to stay away from that poisonous environment against me, I guess that is your prerogative. I tried to promote a positive environment in Area 51 and was largely successful until phpBB.com got hacked. Then all the progress that we made was quickly undone by those who brought their poison to Area 51. That's when I decided to walk away from it. Do you blame me? Do I hold a grudge? You betcha. And I think I have that right...

Micheal wrote:
There wasn't one included in phpBB2, but as mentioned below, there's one now out for phpBB3.

It's a good start. Hopefully AM will evolve to eventually be as good or better than EM was for phpBB2. Hopefully AM will receive strong support from TPTB and MOD authors alike and will be given a chance to thrive and improve...

Micheal wrote:
For starters, as the underlying systems that run phpBB2 advance, you will have more and more problems keeping the code running. I noted this at the main site. PHP 5.2.7 flat-out broke phpBB2 in a horrible, horrible way. phpBB3 handled it as elegantly as it could.

I have already encountered this problem. Luckily my host was more than willing to help resolve the issue. I may not be as lucky if I ever move to another host, so hopefully that won't be necessary. As long as phpBB2 runs smoothly on my host's servers, I have no pressing need to move away from it...

Micheal wrote:
I'd be interested in working on a couple of those if they aren't. The map being one of them.

Good luck with that. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in installing any functionality that was available in phpBB2 in phpBB3. There are so many MODs that aren't available now for phpBB3, that I'm sure there is a huge demand for someone who can create and maintain them...

Micheal wrote:
Enhanced private messaging system, user control panel, enhanced anti-spam measures, decreased load times, extensible authentication with built-in support LDAP, and others, and plenty more. I'm not trying to sound like a salesman, but you continue saying that phpBB3 only offers different looks, which it clearly doesn't, but offers a lot more. Note that I'm not saying people use all of these, which is not what you asked anyway.

I installed a UCP MOD in my community and everyone hated it. So I uninstalled it in favor of the simpler Profile that comes standard in phpBB2. In phpBB3, it cannot be uninstalled. I do not like the phpBB3 UCP because once again, it defies the KISS principle...

I have installed anti-spam into my community and almost never have trouble with it. My page loads aren't any slower than those running phpBB3 boards, so I'm not sure what we would gain there. My PM system is heavily modded too, so I'm not sure what the phpBB3 PM system would offer that we don't already have. Basically all I'm hearing is that many of the MODs that were available for and are installed in my community come standard in phpBB3. But still I have more functionality installed in my community than what comes standard in phpBB3. So updating to phpBB3 would still be a backwards step for my community...

Micheal wrote:
And if phpBB2 is so great, why are so many going to phpBB3?

Perhaps because people are always conditioned to upgrade? People are conditioned to upgrade their PCs with patches and program updates to fix security flaws and bugs. They would do so with their phpBB communities too thinking that phpBB3 is supposed to be more secure than phpBB2. Many are sorry that they did though...

Micheal wrote:
Quote:
The current design does not work correctly, so can't be considered a "feature". If you edit a template in the ACP and can't see the changes in the forum, then that is a bug.
That's not a bug, that's the incorrect use of the feature.

What is the correct use of the template editor then? I really thought that it made it possible for admins to edit their templates using their ACP. What other purpose would it have? If they can edit their templates using the template editor, but the changes won't be reflected in their community without deleting the cache file, then what good is it? What else could it be used for if it isn't supposed to be used to modify their template files???

Personally, I prefer to make my edits in a regular text editor on my PC. The template editor is too limiting for me. Does it make backups? Even after I upload an edited template file to the server, the corresponding cache file must be deleted before the changes are reflected in the community. The caching system adds more work for the phpBB3 admin, it doesn't simplify it...

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Techie-Micheal
Board Member



Joined: 27 Dec 2008

Posts: 49



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:15 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
Micheal wrote:
As code has new features added, the rest of the code must follow. Having the simplified templating system that is phpBB2 simply would not work for phpBB3. That's one of the reasons why phpBB3 was bumped up from phpBB2.2.

Can you give me a reason why the more complex templating system was necessary in phpBB3? Why did it work in phpBB2 but can't be used in phpBB3???
The templating system added functionality that was highly requested, such as conditionals. So by that very virtue alone, the templating system that was in phpBB2 could not have possibly worked in phpBB3.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Well, it can't be all that common if I've never seen it or heard of it and Sam mentioned topics that happened 6 months ago. icon_wink.gif Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to me that the support forums are being flooded with such requests right now.

I can't even begin to guess why you haven't seen the topics. They were there. I don't even run a phpBB3 board, yet I have had to troubleshoot and correct this problem numerous times for those who do. So why is this the prominent problem that people have brought to me to fix for them? Maybe I'm just lucky???
Perhaps you are.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Speaking of hostile ...

Look, there is always cause and effect. I am not the only one to complain about the hostility in the phpBB.com community. I don't know you so I don't know if you were ever part of the problem or not. But it was and probably continues to be a problem. If you want to hold my desire to stay away from that poisonous environment against me, I guess that is your prerogative. I tried to promote a positive environment in Area 51 and was largely successful until phpBB.com got hacked. Then all the progress that we made was quickly undone by those who brought their poison to Area 51. That's when I decided to walk away from it. Do you blame me? Do I hold a grudge? You betcha. And I think I have that right...
It is always your choice how you (re)act. Holding grudges isn't physically healthy, nor is it healthy for a community, be it here at Dave's site or elsewhere.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
For starters, as the underlying systems that run phpBB2 advance, you will have more and more problems keeping the code running. I noted this at the main site. PHP 5.2.7 flat-out broke phpBB2 in a horrible, horrible way. phpBB3 handled it as elegantly as it could.

I have already encountered this problem. Luckily my host was more than willing to help resolve the issue. I may not be as lucky if I ever move to another host, so hopefully that won't be necessary. As long as phpBB2 runs smoothly on my host's servers, I have no pressing need to move away from it...
Fortunately you were lucky, but my point is that next time you may not be so lucky.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
I'd be interested in working on a couple of those if they aren't. The map being one of them.

Good luck with that. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in installing any functionality that was available in phpBB2 in phpBB3. There are so many MODs that aren't available now for phpBB3, that I'm sure there is a huge demand for someone who can create and maintain them...
That's another thing you keep saying. These are MODs we are talking about, they weren't available in phpBB2, they were available for phpBB2. It may sound like a small difference, but it is actually a huge difference. phpBB2 never had maps. phpBB3 doesn't have maps. But MOD authors made maps available for phpBB2, as I'm sure MOD authors will make maps available for phpBB3.
Quote:
My page loads aren't any slower than those running phpBB3 boards, so I'm not sure what we would gain there. My PM system is heavily modded too, so I'm not sure what the phpBB3 PM system would offer that we don't already have. Basically all I'm hearing is that many of the MODs that were available for and are installed in my community come standard in phpBB3. But still I have more functionality installed in my community than what comes standard in phpBB3. So updating to phpBB3 would still be a backwards step for my community...
Once you get a large site, you'll notice a huge difference in performance. phpBB.com had performance issues with phpBB2, but once it went to phpBB3, those performance issues went away. bokt.nl, another large site had similar issues until they moved to phpBB3.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
And if phpBB2 is so great, why are so many going to phpBB3?

Perhaps because people are always conditioned to upgrade? People are conditioned to upgrade their PCs with patches and program updates to fix security flaws and bugs. They would do so with their phpBB communities too thinking that phpBB3 is supposed to be more secure than phpBB2. Many are sorry that they did though...
And many are happy they went with phpBB3. As for phpBB3, its security record already beats phpBB2.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Quote:
The current design does not work correctly, so can't be considered a "feature". If you edit a template in the ACP and can't see the changes in the forum, then that is a bug.
That's not a bug, that's the incorrect use of the feature.

What is the correct use of the template editor then? I really thought that it made it possible for admins to edit their templates using their ACP. What other purpose would it have? If they can edit their templates using the template editor, but the changes won't be reflected in their community without deleting the cache file, then what good is it? What else could it be used for if it isn't supposed to be used to modify their template files???

Personally, I prefer to make my edits in a regular text editor on my PC. The template editor is too limiting for me. Does it make backups? Even after I upload an edited template file to the server, the corresponding cache file must be deleted before the changes are reflected in the community. The caching system adds more work for the phpBB3 admin, it doesn't simplify it...
Nobody is stopping you from making edits and uploading them. You don't have to use the ACP to make edits. In fact, uploading the edits is the preferred way to do things. As for the template editor, espicom explained how. It is not a bug, the design is where things need to be addressed, which as I explained, the developers have already stated they are doing so.
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iWisdom
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 16



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:10 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a "random" white page. The pages are only "white" since a PHP error is being suppressed, which is usually the result of a change to the template the user made, then the cache purged itself and viola. It's not a "longstanding bug nobody has a clue about", it's almost always user error if a simple cache purge can't cause it (that itself is usually caused by since-remedied user error).
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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:50 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Micheal wrote:
The templating system added functionality that was highly requested, such as conditionals. So by that very virtue alone, the templating system that was in phpBB2 could not have possibly worked in phpBB3.

Somehow, we survived without conditionals in phpBB2 templates. The added complexity negates any added benefits when you are providing code that you want the largest number of people to be able to understand. If you want to limit the size of your community only to those who have advanced coding skills, then the benefits were worth it. Once again, that was a complete violation of the KISS principle though...

Micheal wrote:
It is always your choice how you (re)act. Holding grudges isn't physically healthy, nor is it healthy for a community, be it here at Dave's site or elsewhere.

Actually it is healthier to avoid those who choose to make life more difficult. If they were apologetic for their actions and were working to change, then perhaps I could find a way to forgive them. But since that isn't likely to happen and since I continue to encounter their victims, I see no reason or benefit in turning the other cheek for these poisonous individuals. They do not promote a healthy environment, yet they are given the run of the place over at phpBB.com. And if they bring their poison over here and are allowed to get away with it, then for my well-being, I will walk away from here too. They are like a cancer that destroys everything if given a chance to do so. Like them, I don't like cancer either and that will never change...

Micheal wrote:
Fortunately you were lucky, but my point is that next time you may not be so lucky.

Perhaps I was lucky. Perhaps having a good host helps too. Time will tell whether this will become an issue that I really have to deal with. Chances are, it may never again become a problem. Time will tell...

Micheal wrote:
That's another thing you keep saying. These are MODs we are talking about, they weren't available in phpBB2, they were available for phpBB2. It may sound like a small difference, but it is actually a huge difference. phpBB2 never had maps. phpBB3 doesn't have maps. But MOD authors made maps available for phpBB2, as I'm sure MOD authors will make maps available for phpBB3.

I have maps now. When will maps be available in phpBB3? There are a lot of MODs that are currently available for phpBB2 that aren't in phpBB3. I don't have to wait since I already have them installed in my phpBB2 community. If I "upgraded" to phpBB3, how long would my members have to wait until our current functionality became available for MOD install for our community? 1 year, 2, perhaps 3? Why wait since I already have what we need? And why would I want to have to go through the effort of reinstalling functionality that I already have in phpBB2? I have more important things to do with my time than to have to keep reinventing the wheel for my members...

Micheal wrote:
Once you get a large site, you'll notice a huge difference in performance. phpBB.com had performance issues with phpBB2, but once it went to phpBB3, those performance issues went away. bokt.nl, another large site had similar issues until they moved to phpBB3.

I don't think I will ever have to worry about adminning a large site. As for most admins, this is a hobby, not a life for me. Few phpBB communities percentage wise ever grow to become huge. For most, this "improvement" is little to no benefit...

Micheal wrote:
As for phpBB3, its security record already beats phpBB2.

Do you have any documentation that supports that claim? It would be interesting to see data supporting this claim...

Micheal wrote:
Nobody is stopping you from making edits and uploading them. You don't have to use the ACP to make edits. In fact, uploading the edits is the preferred way to do things. As for the template editor, espicom explained how. It is not a bug, the design is where things need to be addressed, which as I explained, the developers have already stated they are doing so.

I never felt pressured into using the template editor. I doubt that most experienced admins would use it. There lies the problem. The less experienced people are the ones likely to want to use it, yet they will have no idea why their changes aren't appearing in their forums. So without any mention how to get this to work for those who are likely to use it, this is a bug. Otherwise, it would work without the need to know that the corresponding cache file also needs to be deleted. Hopefully 3.2 will be released sooner rather than later, which creates another problem for inexperienced admins. How would they update their phpBB3 communities without losing any added functionality or style modifications? Hopefully these inexperienced admins will be using AM and 3.2 update files will be created that allows them to update as painlessly as possible...

Micheal, what confuses me is why you would be interested in this community? If you are a huge fan of phpBB3, why would you want to register and post in a community for those who have decided to stick with phpBB2? I think most of us have weighed the positives and negatives of "upgrading" and have chosen to stick with phpBB2 for many good reasons. You seem to prefer phpBB3, so why join a phpBB2 community? It seems like your talents would be best served devoting your time and energy developing the MODs currently available for phpBB2 for phpBB3. Wouldn't that be more worthwhile than debating with me about the merits of switching to phpBB3? You're not going to be changing my mind...

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Ptirhiik
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 114


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:20 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Actually I have to disagree with you, Nightrider, about the conditionals in the template parser: it makes the things much more simpler for an average joe to modify his style the way he want, without digging into the php. However, I'm not a big fan of the phpBB 3 template parser, due to some options not taken: ie, why removing {} around the vars when dealing with a condition ? Why the nest aren't explicitly worded (eg row.foo) everywhere, loops included ? etc..


Now about the phpBB 2 versus phpBB 3 debat (is it one ?..):

For those having basic board and who does not have time/facility to administrate a board but want one, phpBB 2 is the way: not that much to understand, and not that much to do for an administrator. Long story short: "I can not do a lot, but I don't need to".

phpBB 3 will rather match people with a strong web culture, having time to dedicate in fine tunning their tool, or having the need to be picky due to large community. phpBB 3 is not opened to modifications, unless they take place through the hook system: outside this system, the auto patcher will potentially deeply screw the things, and there is no facility to use another system (don't tell me the modx is readable... it is not; nor autoMod will save your ass, it won't).

For people having a deeply modded board, why the hell should they change ? As long as they have the product that fit their needs, and as long as they have followed the security patches (own or official), there is no reason to go to a less adapted product. btw, php 5.2.7 onto phpBB 3 was not really only a cosmetic issue: slash stripping on unescaped slashes is not "cosmetic": it is lost of inputs. Anyway, I've never seen a server with magic_quotes on running on php 5, but maybe some people are following the joomla administration advices. icon_lol.gif
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dogs and things
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

Posts: 624
Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:29 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Why PhpBB2?

For me the answer is simple:

I started out with zero knowledge and have spent thousands of hours in learning and making my board exactly as I want to have it. I have added many MODs, made my own template and my users are happy with the result.

I see absolutely no use in starting all over again just because there´s a new product available, I'm quite happy with the result of my efforts and am glad I can dedicate my time to other things. icon_razz.gif

One other very important reason for me to stick with what I have is the fact that phpBB2refugees exists, as long as I can find help with whatever issues might arise I'm very comfortable to keep my current software alive.

Heck, I'm running XP (32 bits), drivin' a 19 year old car, about to celebrate my 49th birthday... icon_lol.gif

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phpBB2 will never die, I hope!
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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posts: 48
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:48 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Ptirhiik wrote:
Actually I have to disagree with you, Nightrider, about the conditionals in the template parser: it makes the things much more simpler for an average joe to modify his style the way he want, without digging into the php. However, I'm not a big fan of the phpBB 3 template parser, due to some options not taken: ie, why removing {} around the vars when dealing with a condition ? Why the nest aren't explicitly worded (eg row.foo) everywhere, loops included ? etc..


Now about the phpBB 2 versus phpBB 3 debat (is it one ?..):

For those having basic board and who does not have time/facility to administrate a board but want one, phpBB 2 is the way: not that much to understand, and not that much to do for an administrator. Long story short: "I can not do a lot, but I don't need to".

phpBB 3 will rather match people with a strong web culture, having time to dedicate in fine tunning their tool, or having the need to be picky due to large community.

Well said on several points. phpBB 2 and phpBB 3 appeal to different audiences, and as team members we acknowledged that even before phpBB 3 was released. And that played into the decision to attempt to maintain the phpBB 2 line.

Which is to say that people with heavily moddified phpBB 2 boards were not the target audience of phpBB 3. It was the user who complained about stuff like having to MOD in attachments that was the target of phpBB 3. The intent was to support phpBB 2 for the happy phpBB user -- heavily MODed or not.

I sincerely hope this board doesn't encourage the "sectarianism" already too deeply within the phpBB community. Nobody will win if that happens, IMHO.
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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posts: 48
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:53 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

iWisdom wrote:
For what it's worth, I've yet to see a "random" white page.

I'm surprised to see you say that. Back mid year and into the fall there was more than one long topic where this is exactly what happened. "Got up this morning and my board was gone." No changes to the board whatsoever. In a couple of cases core files had been corrupted, but the majority were down to a corrupt cache. We took the long road finding that out more than once, and that's the original source of the oft repeated "Have you manually cleared the cache" advice. Which some of the support team seemed to resist early on, I might add, for some reason not clear to me.
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iWisdom
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 16



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:01 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

SamG wrote:
iWisdom wrote:
For what it's worth, I've yet to see a "random" white page.

I'm surprised to see you say that. Back mid year and into the fall there was more than one long topic where this is exactly what happened. "Got up this morning and my board was gone." No changes to the board whatsoever. In a couple of cases core files had been corrupted, but the majority were down to a corrupt cache. We took the long road finding that out more than once, and that's the original source of the oft repeated "Have you manually cleared the cache" advice. Which some of the support team seemed to resist early on, I might add, for some reason not clear to me.
I've seen a seemingly "random" corrupt cache, but things rarely just break themselves. It's usually not quite as "random" as people think.
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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posts: 48
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:24 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Agreed. Of course, nobody is saying that the cache just corrupts itself without reason. Only that it isn't always down to a user edit. That much seems beyond doubt, I think, if the users are to be believed. The exact cause (or causes) is unknown, to my knowledge.
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Techie-Micheal
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Joined: 27 Dec 2008

Posts: 49



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:39 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
Micheal wrote:
The templating system added functionality that was highly requested, such as conditionals. So by that very virtue alone, the templating system that was in phpBB2 could not have possibly worked in phpBB3.

Somehow, we survived without conditionals in phpBB2 templates. The added complexity negates any added benefits when you are providing code that you want the largest number of people to be able to understand. If you want to limit the size of your community only to those who have advanced coding skills, then the benefits were worth it. Once again, that was a complete violation of the KISS principle though...
And yet people really, really wanted the conditionals, and better caching, and the various other features the new templating system offers.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
It is always your choice how you (re)act. Holding grudges isn't physically healthy, nor is it healthy for a community, be it here at Dave's site or elsewhere.

Actually it is healthier to avoid those who choose to make life more difficult. If they were apologetic for their actions and were working to change, then perhaps I could find a way to forgive them. But since that isn't likely to happen and since I continue to encounter their victims, I see no reason or benefit in turning the other cheek for these poisonous individuals. They do not promote a healthy environment, yet they are given the run of the place over at phpBB.com. And if they bring their poison over here and are allowed to get away with it, then for my well-being, I will walk away from here too. They are like a cancer that destroys everything if given a chance to do so. Like them, I don't like cancer either and that will never change...
Holding a grudge and avoiding people are two different things. The former isn't doing anybody any good. The latter might be beneficial in some scenarios.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Fortunately you were lucky, but my point is that next time you may not be so lucky.

Perhaps I was lucky. Perhaps having a good host helps too. Time will tell whether this will become an issue that I really have to deal with. Chances are, it may never again become a problem. Time will tell...
Actually, chances are it will happen again. It isn't the first time the PHP Group has broken things.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
That's another thing you keep saying. These are MODs we are talking about, they weren't available in phpBB2, they were available for phpBB2. It may sound like a small difference, but it is actually a huge difference. phpBB2 never had maps. phpBB3 doesn't have maps. But MOD authors made maps available for phpBB2, as I'm sure MOD authors will make maps available for phpBB3.

I have maps now. When will maps be available in phpBB3? There are a lot of MODs that are currently available for phpBB2 that aren't in phpBB3. I don't have to wait since I already have them installed in my phpBB2 community. If I "upgraded" to phpBB3, how long would my members have to wait until our current functionality became available for MOD install for our community? 1 year, 2, perhaps 3? Why wait since I already have what we need? And why would I want to have to go through the effort of reinstalling functionality that I already have in phpBB2? I have more important things to do with my time than to have to keep reinventing the wheel for my members...
I'm guessing maps will never be in phpBB3. icon_wink.gif Maybe they will be available for phpBB3 soon.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Once you get a large site, you'll notice a huge difference in performance. phpBB.com had performance issues with phpBB2, but once it went to phpBB3, those performance issues went away. bokt.nl, another large site had similar issues until they moved to phpBB3.

I don't think I will ever have to worry about adminning a large site. As for most admins, this is a hobby, not a life for me. Few phpBB communities percentage wise ever grow to become huge. For most, this "improvement" is little to no benefit...
I'll half-agree with this one. However, performance improvements never hurt anyone either. There's always the chance that you'll get slashdotted/dugg/whatever too.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
As for phpBB3, its security record already beats phpBB2.

Do you have any documentation that supports that claim? It would be interesting to see data supporting this claim...
If I could get to phpBB.com to provide links (Level3 outage), I'd provide links, but in the year that phpBB3 has been out, it has yet to have a critical vulnerability, while in its first year, phpBB2 did. If remember serves me correctly, one of those vulnerabilities gave immediate access to the admin panel.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Nobody is stopping you from making edits and uploading them. You don't have to use the ACP to make edits. In fact, uploading the edits is the preferred way to do things. As for the template editor, espicom explained how. It is not a bug, the design is where things need to be addressed, which as I explained, the developers have already stated they are doing so.

I never felt pressured into using the template editor. I doubt that most experienced admins would use it. There lies the problem. The less experienced people are the ones likely to want to use it, yet they will have no idea why their changes aren't appearing in their forums. So without any mention how to get this to work for those who are likely to use it, this is a bug. Otherwise, it would work without the need to know that the corresponding cache file also needs to be deleted. Hopefully 3.2 will be released sooner rather than later, which creates another problem for inexperienced admins. How would they update their phpBB3 communities without losing any added functionality or style modifications? Hopefully these inexperienced admins will be using AM and 3.2 update files will be created that allows them to update as painlessly as possible...
phpBB3 offers a slick update system that does the patching for you, which I'm guessing AutoMOD makes use of that system to do its work.

Quote:
Micheal, what confuses me is why you would be interested in this community? If you are a huge fan of phpBB3, why would you want to register and post in a community for those who have decided to stick with phpBB2? I think most of us have weighed the positives and negatives of "upgrading" and have chosen to stick with phpBB2 for many good reasons. You seem to prefer phpBB3, so why join a phpBB2 community? It seems like your talents would be best served devoting your time and energy developing the MODs currently available for phpBB2 for phpBB3. Wouldn't that be more worthwhile than debating with me about the merits of switching to phpBB3? You're not going to be changing my mind...
I don't intend to change your mind (though it would be nice icon_razz.gif). I'm here for two main reasons: 1) nostalgia. I started with phpBB with 1.4, got involved with phpBBHacks, was on their team for a while, got started with phpBB2 and loved it. I joined the phpBB team and was on the team for about 6 years. 2) To clear up some FUD going around. One person in particular (not you) appears to like spreading FUD due to his hate of team members.
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