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Why phbBB2?

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Techie-Micheal
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Joined: 27 Dec 2008

Posts: 49



PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:42 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
Micheal wrote:
Why does Joe the Plumber need to read the templating code or the caching code? Chances are, they don't.

You know better. Joe the plumber does try to add functionality and then when they run into trouble, they come asking for help. That won't change. So making it even more difficult for them to even try to alter their boards really defies reason...
They try to add functionality, yes, through existing MODs that are released. The average Joe doesn't go reading source code. They don't care how it works as long as it works.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
And we are back to you making the choice as to how you react. You don't have to wait until someone apologizes to forgive them. icon_wink.gif If I waited to forgive those who have screwed up my life, I'd be in a mental institution right now ...

Look above. One of the problems that I have been referring to has emerged in this community and once again I see no remorse. I see no change in attitude. This is exactly what I was talking about. Why should I forgive anyone like that? I see no reason to drop my guard for someone who enjoys inflicting harm on others. Why would phpBB.com ever promote anyone like that? It definitely does't work in the best interest of the community...
It is your choice how you react. I've been saying this all along. If you let someone get to you, you are letting them win.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
That's why I said that phpBB3 has a better record already.

You said that phpBB3 has yet to have a critical vulnerability. All I did was a quick Google search and found links that this might not be true. Since I don't use phpBB3, I can't vouch for the validity of any of the claims. But since there were many pages in the result set, it seems to me that there have been problems. If all of the reported problems were false, then that is great to know. But does that mean that phpBB2 is less secure? PhpBB2 has come a long way since 2.0.0...
I knew this would happen. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Let me requote what I said:

Quote:
in the year that phpBB3 has been out, it has yet to have a critical vulnerability, while in its first year, phpBB2 did.


Quote:
Micheal wrote:
not all people on the team are mean.

Quite a few of them were supportive of those who were. A cop never turns on a fellow cop right or wrong. That attitude was pervasive over at phpBB.com...
Actually, they do. Ever heard of Internal Affairs? Tips can and do come from law enforcement officers who are trying to do the right thing ... Never say never. icon_wink.gif
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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:16 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Micheal wrote:
They try to add functionality, yes, through existing MODs that are released. The average Joe doesn't go reading source code. They don't care how it works as long as it works.

Many try to mod their templates without using existing MODs too. With a basic understanding of HTML, that wasn't that difficult to accomplish with phpBB2. But I can't even imagine how most novices could attempt that or hope to be successful in phpBB3...

Micheal wrote:
If you let someone get to you, you are letting them win.

When the person who is causing the problem can ban you, it's not difficult to let it get to you. When they are abusing their power and getting away with it, it hurts the entire community. The abuser may feel like he has won, but everyone else loses...

Micheal wrote:
I knew this would happen. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Let me requote what I said:

Quote:
in the year that phpBB3 has been out, it has yet to have a critical vulnerability, while in its first year, phpBB2 did.

It is not my intention to put words in your mouth. So far, you seem like a decent enough guy. If I misunderstood what you said, I apologize. All I was trying to show is that with a Google search, I can find pages of links referring to security flaws in phpBB3. If they all were reported and corrected before phpBB3 went gold, that's good to know...

Since many of the same developers who developed phpBB2 were involved in creating phpBB3, it wouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't be likely to repeat many of the same mistakes that they made early in the phpBB2 development. I would expect fewer or different security problems from what were uncovered in phpBB2 in phpBB3 because experience of the developers should have aided in avoiding similar mistakes...

Micheal wrote:
Actually, they do. Ever heard of Internal Affairs? Tips can and do come from law enforcement officers who are trying to do the right thing ... Never say never. icon_wink.gif

It would have been nice if there was an Internal Affairs division over at phpBB.com. They might have been able to stop some of the abuse being perpetrated by their own staff before there were as many victims and damage to the community. Even then, Internal Affairs divisions aren't always unbiased. But that might be an improvement over no external oversite at all...

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espicom
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Joined: 24 Nov 2008

Posts: 55
Location: Woodstock, IL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:35 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
It would have been nice if there was an Internal Affairs division over at phpBB.com. They might have been able to stop some of the abuse being perpetrated by their own staff before there were as many victims and damage to the community. Even then, Internal Affairs divisions aren't always unbiased. But that might be an improvement over no external oversite at all...


I'd say there IS an "internal affairs" within phpbb.com, because I know of several people who were booted off the support staff for saying inappropriate things on the forum. And I know of a couple who have been put "on probation". If I recall, one was flat out banned a couple of years back.

I would not be a member of the staff because I would not want to live under the constraints that the position would require. I want the freedom to be able to tell someone they're a PITA when they need to be told that.
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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:44 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

I really saw no evidence of it. There may have been some who were booted for whatever reason, but was there a staff who met to make that decision or was the final decision made by the owner of the site? I didn't get an answer from 3Di whether he was fired or quit. It would be nice to know that the staff at phpBB.com terminated his position because of how he treated the members in the phpBB community. When I complained to the staff, they seemed supportive of his actions. So I felt no ability or power to help to stop it from continuing. I saw and heard of too many members who got hurt and harassed by phpBB staff to believe that they were simply isolated incidents by rogue elements within the phpBB team...

Image link

We are so far off-topic, we probably should take this discussion elsewhere. I really don't need to rehash this any further in this topic. I see no evidence that the negatives over at phpBB.com are being repeated in this community...

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3Di
Board Member



Joined: 03 Dec 2008

Posts: 15
Location: Italy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:55 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
I didn't get an answer from 3Di whether he was fired or quit.

And you will never know.

The one thing is: you broke the rules, I asked to ban you because of that, someone else got the stick for me, and he was someone who decided I was right.

As a former MOD Team Member I was unable to ban anyone, if that's a thing that can make you happy. icon_smile.gif

That's all.

Next time: follow the rules and don't blame anyone it is devoted to enforce them, also stop ranting.. it is not a thing a very Man should do.

Regards. icon_smile.gif
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Nightrider
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:15 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

No one broke any rules. You came and began harrassing the members, then didn't like to be challenged. You are a troublemaker so it is good that you no longer have any authority to hurt anyone over at phpBB.com. Whether you were fired or quit, the outcome is a positive one for the entire phpBB community. You should never have been promoted. You were using your power for all the wrong reasons...

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3Di
Board Member



Joined: 03 Dec 2008

Posts: 15
Location: Italy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:18 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

3Di wrote:
stop ranting.. it is not a thing a very Man should do.

Yawnnn.. icon_rolleyes.gif
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Nightrider
Board Member



Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:27 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

It's an easy question to answer. Were you demoted or did you quit? My guess since you won't answer is that you were demoted, which shows that the phpBB staff finally came tp the conclusion that you were in fact too caustic and abusive for their community. That would be nice to know that eventually they weren't willing to defend your actions any longer...

There are builders and there are destroyers in this world. You are a destroyer...

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~Cowboy~
Board Member



Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:29 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

From what I can see Nightrider has done nothing but help people. I have never seen him do a bad turn at all and I have been watching for a long time. So if Nightrider says you were a bad egg I would tend to believe him.

Yawnnn Image link

So can we get back on topic now????

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3Di
Board Member



Joined: 03 Dec 2008

Posts: 15
Location: Italy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:32 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

~Cowboy~ wrote:
From what I can see Nightrider has done nothing but help people. I have never seen him do a bad turn at all and I have been watching for a long time. So if Nightrider says you were a bad egg I would tend to believe him.

Yawnnn Image link


Your logic isn't so logic. He broke the rules, I'm not the only one who saw that, someone else got the stick I requested. I'm happy it happened, it was a long time the guy was breaking our balls, not only mines.

Keep cool, logic-man. icon_smile.gif
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:36 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Yet still I believe him .. humm why is that??

Nothing against you personally of course 3Di.

Yet the fact is I still believe him.. I am a pretty good judge of character if I do say so my self and if he was "busting your balls" you more then likely had it coming to you.

Just an observation from a person who has been sitting on the sidelines watching for quite some time...

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Nightrider
Board Member



Joined: 10 Dec 2008

Posts: 41
Location: St Petersburg, FL


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:38 pm 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

3Di wrote:
He broke the rules, I'm not the only one who saw that, someone else got the stick I requested. I'm happy it happened, it was a long time the guy was breaking our balls, not only mines.

The only rule I broke was standing in your way as you harassed the members. I am proud of that "crime". I purposely avoided phpBB.com because of people like you and had no trouble until you came to Area 51 to cause problems. If you had stayed away from Area 51, there would never have been any trouble. You came to Area 51 to cause trouble and get into people's faces. For that, I hope you are proud of your actions. Please do not harass people in this community. it's time for you to start helping people, not trying to inflict harm on them. At least in this community, your stick is nothing but a small harmless twig...

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Techie-Micheal
Board Member



Joined: 27 Dec 2008

Posts: 49



PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:56 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Nightrider wrote:
Micheal wrote:
They try to add functionality, yes, through existing MODs that are released. The average Joe doesn't go reading source code. They don't care how it works as long as it works.

Many try to mod their templates without using existing MODs too. With a basic understanding of HTML, that wasn't that difficult to accomplish with phpBB2. But I can't even imagine how most novices could attempt that or hope to be successful in phpBB3...
I'll admit that the templates in 3.0 are harder, but I don't think it is too much more to see the difference in say block variables. And there's always documentation and people willing to answer questions. icon_smile.gif I will say that when I was on the Support Team, I refused to answer questions on the styling/templating at first. It confused me, and I felt like that was the Styles Team job. However, after some playing around, I was able to make sense of it.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
If you let someone get to you, you are letting them win.

When the person who is causing the problem can ban you, it's not difficult to let it get to you. When they are abusing their power and getting away with it, it hurts the entire community. The abuser may feel like he has won, but everyone else loses...
I won't discuss this further because I only vaguely remember what happened, so I can't speak to the details.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
I knew this would happen. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Let me requote what I said:

Quote:
in the year that phpBB3 has been out, it has yet to have a critical vulnerability, while in its first year, phpBB2 did.

It is not my intention to put words in your mouth. So far, you seem like a decent enough guy. If I misunderstood what you said, I apologize. All I was trying to show is that with a Google search, I can find pages of links referring to security flaws in phpBB3. If they all were reported and corrected before phpBB3 went gold, that's good to know...
Fair enough. icon_smile.gif What I'm trying to get across is that there are many sites out there that intentionally or unintentionally word things so that someone without a security background or is familiar with phpBB3 will think phpBB3 is riddled with holes when it certainly is not. The memberlist SQL injection is the only one that I can think of off-hand in phpBB3 that was valid and carried weight. The vulnerability I discovered in phpBB3 was minor, and even then only worked in certain situations. The links you pointed to were invalid, or in the case of the MOD, wasn't the fault of phpBB3 at all.

Quote:
Since many of the same developers who developed phpBB2 were involved in creating phpBB3, it wouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't be likely to repeat many of the same mistakes that they made early in the phpBB2 development. I would expect fewer or different security problems from what were uncovered in phpBB2 in phpBB3 because experience of the developers should have aided in avoiding similar mistakes...
Actually, the developers have done a very good job at not letting old mistakes creep back in, and I'd like to think I've had some small hand in that as I'm on the Security Team.

Quote:
Micheal wrote:
Actually, they do. Ever heard of Internal Affairs? Tips can and do come from law enforcement officers who are trying to do the right thing ... Never say never. icon_wink.gif

It would have been nice if there was an Internal Affairs division over at phpBB.com. They might have been able to stop some of the abuse being perpetrated by their own staff before there were as many victims and damage to the community. Even then, Internal Affairs divisions aren't always unbiased. But that might be an improvement over no external oversite at all...
As espicom noted, there have been instances where team members have had to be removed, put on probation, or outright banned.

That all said, cheers. icon_smile.gif
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drathbun
Board Member



Joined: 24 Jul 2008

Posts: 728
Location: Texas


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:08 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

Folks, I read much of this discussion (almost 3 pages since my last log in! icon_eek.gif) with great interest and there has been good give-and-take on many items. However, I said this in another topic and feel I must make the same statement here: If you have baggage from other sites, whether phpbb.com or area51 or even phpbbhacks please check it at the door. I want this site to be about the positives of phpbb2, not the negatives. I think we can all manage that, can't we? icon_smile.gif
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~Cowboy~
Board Member



Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:15 am 
Post subject: Re: Why phbBB2?

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The topic is Why Phpbb2?:

I like the simplicity for users and admins.

You can not get that with phpbb3. Its not simply a learning curve because I know how to use it. I am not saying that their is no learning curve with a downgrade to phpbb3, because of that.. there is little doubt.

I want members to be able to come in and post. Not sort through confusing tabs after tabs to find a function in their profile.

I do like tabs if they are used correctly but this is more of an abuse of tabs then anything else because nothing is clear cut for a new user.

Setting up your profile should not be a puzzle for a new user it should be short and sweet, all on one page and as simple as humanly possible.

Phpbb3 is a complicated mess. I don't want to spend days with each member guiding them through on how to set up their profile. I have better things to do.

I like the aspect of the ACP that allows you to set up bbcodes with out having to dig through the root files. But I don't like HTML turned off so you have to set up a bizillion BBCodes to cover the html that is now missing.

I think the proper path to take was to make certain HTML tags admin only usage, Not cripple the boards by restricting all html.. That was just WAYYY over the top.

The ACP should not be tabbed at all it should be just like the old ACP with an option to tab it if you wish too..Not the other way around..

There are so many fundamental blunders in phpbb3, that I won't even consider going back to phpbb3 until they are corrected.

This is what happens when programmers refuse to listen to the people that are using the software..

I warned them at phpbb dot com that the ACP was way over the top before this happened, but all they could come up with was the words "learning curve", like it was a catch all for all the garbage they were inflicting on us to make it all ok. Well guess what. It's NOT all OK. Furthermore it never was OK. They just refused to listen to common sense. They were a closed minded bunch and had tunnel vision for their project. And the end result was very Microsoft of them.

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